VEKN - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://vekn.net/ Wed, 22 May 2013 15:56:53 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://vekn.net/components/com_kunena/template/Evolution-dark-red/images/icons/rss.png VEKN - Forum http://vekn.net/ en-gb Subject: Re: What print-on-demand COULD mean - by: johannes http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48933 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48933 direwolf wrote:

johannes wrote:
You can´t just go on a forum and blurp your ideas whenever you feel like it.

Actually, that is kinda the point of forums. The internet gives voice to every idiot with an idea, but it also gives the community the option of supporting or opposing the idea.

Good ideas should be discussed, and feedback to good ideas encourages the evolution of a good idea. Bad ideas need to be shot down, (preferably with logic, rather than flames!) Pruning bad ideas cultivates better ideas.

I spend a lot of time in the "Card Ideas" section of the forums. What I see there could be applied to ideas presented by the design team (after several rounds of play-testing!) Sure it's not structured, but it is not invaluable.


I am sure there would be some valuable ideas or comments in an open playtest forum. However the question is if they can be harvested effectively. After all the playtest coordinator has a finite amount of time to spend. I think doing it for the fixing of LB will give us an idea of the amount of feedback and time it takes to filter it before jumping cold waters and doing it with say 35 cards and end up with too many posts. If you open a channel for feedback you need to be able to process it or people will get frustrated as they were with the previous (pre POD) playtest process where no feedback was given at all and final cards poorly reflected playtest results.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Wed, 22 May 2013 15:04:12 +0000 Subject: Re: What print-on-demand COULD mean - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48901 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48901 kombainas wrote:
Well, even though I'd day, it's a great community here, it's still unrepresentative mob rule. People could come to a conclusion that a particular card would not work as intended, playtests would show otherwise. I'd smell a potential for a rift. Since applying for testing is essentially free, I believe I'd rather have people freely join the playtest, than go wild on unfinished work in forums


The final round of play-testing is not "unfinished work." I would call it mostly finished work. At that point there should be a 99.8% chance that it IS finished work.

And people "go wild" on the forums about cards already in print!

You say "people could come to a conclusion that a particular card would not work as intended." That is something that can be verified, both by logic and by play-testing. There will be substantial evidence to support or denounce such "conclusions."

Being able to discuss such things openly is not the "unrepresentative mob rule" that you fear.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 23:20:22 +0000 Subject: Re: What print-on-demand COULD mean - by: kombainas http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48898 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48898 ]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 21:42:06 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: ReverendRevolver http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48890 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48890 porphyrion wrote:
MMPA only gets better as it allows you to play your masters faster so you end up with less masters in hand. the player with the most masters in hand obviously isn't necessarily the same as the player with the most masters in his deck...
Aksinya or something with brothers grimm or path of the void is hurt though.

personally, i liked the equipment & the hand size reduction suggestions. making MMPA-allowing vamps rushable unfortunately doesn't hurt Anson or ANI-Cybele/Nana that much (not without a maneuver or two). burning all Ashurs in play and in hand as a side-effect could though. gosh, i really hate MMPA

and Anson would just catch this vote with 2nd Tradition anyway, then .44 + pursuit like everyone has seen a kazillion times.


I run Anson dedicated cel guns combat, 22 masters total i believe.

In the match agaimst AAA girls nonsense, they never have enough combat. Even if i dont get Anson, i just discard more masters and volker+Marcellous rush and block thexhell out of anyone they can. Having 36 combat cards or more typically makesyou dedicated combat. If they keep ending combat, i typically draw even better red cards when i psyche and inevitably can shoot for 6 and taste by the time they majesty force of personality or whatever i have to psyche.

Grapple combat is better. Only weak combat or dexicated combat wthout answers to sce, such as akunanse, would have any real issue getting blocked by girls decks. A gun and a pursiot or crows plus bats 2-3 times should never scare someone with twice the damage output per round and possible damagexprevention.

My idea of 2 agg to a vamp without fortitude snipes the problem vamp, and limiting hand size makez them that much weaker in combat.

Its a fine line, huring the abusers and not the ones who use mpas sparingly.

Tablets needs to say minion cards. Period. Once lb is fixed, and ashurs, girls decks are still strong, but lose steam due to risk of losing important cards to liquidation.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 20:23:45 +0000 Subject: Re: What print-on-demand COULD mean - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48858 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48858
I agree that play-testing is a responsibility, but I do not agree that that one has to "participate in multiple rounds" or "for a whole expansion" to provide useful feedback.

It probably wasn't clear before, I will make it so now: "Open" play-testing is not intended for early rounds of play-testing. It really is only useful for the final round of play-testing.

I look forward to trying out new versions of Lilith's Blessing. To me that is a step in the right direction. There are a billion Lilith's Blessing's in circulation now. Fixing that card in order to un-ban it should be done before print-on-demand is realized so that version can be available on demand. If that works, Pascal should revisit other cards and balance and change them before on-demand.

With print-on-demand the cost of changing a card (for the publisher) is minimal. The actual cost is passed on to the consumer, who will purchase replacement cards with accurate text (or play older versions and deal with text migration/errata.) Players do this already, retiring old copies of cards when they get new copies, only using old versions for rarer cards.

If the publisher can provide updated cards quickly why shouldn't they? There are plenty of players who will buy replacements. You do run the risk of alienating players if there are TOO MANY card changes after publication. Ideally you want to iron out all these possibilities before publication.

There is no need to wait for a new set of cards to make card text changes. In order for that to work, we need to see fewer changes AFTER publication. Keep doing things the way they have always been done (by Wizards of the Coast and then White Wolf) and you can expect the same results. We have the opportunity to do things different.

That doesn't mean that you should do something different for the sake of doing something different. I understand VEKN's cautious baby steps. A safe, small expansion set, built the same way WotC/WW designed their sets. I hope the design team learns alot from that process and evolves it, modernizes it.

I'm going to keep pushing my radical outside-of-the-box ideas. I'm not expecting big changes, I just want to see the discussion of ideas, and I want V:tES to succeed. To do that it has to move in the right direction, even if that is not the same direction I would put it on.

johannes wrote:
You can´t just go on a forum and blurp your ideas whenever you feel like it.

Actually, that is kinda the point of forums. The internet gives voice to every idiot with an idea, but it also gives the community the option of supporting or opposing the idea.

Good ideas should be discussed, and feedback to good ideas encourages the evolution of a good idea. Bad ideas need to be shot down, (preferably with logic, rather than flames!) Pruning bad ideas cultivates better ideas.

I spend a lot of time in the "Card Ideas" section of the forums. What I see there could be applied to ideas presented by the design team (after several rounds of play-testing!) Sure it's not structured, but it is not invaluable.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 16:38:32 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: porphyrion http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48848 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48848 Aksinya or something with brothers grimm or path of the void is hurt though.

personally, i liked the equipment & the hand size reduction suggestions. making MMPA-allowing vamps rushable unfortunately doesn't hurt Anson or ANI-Cybele/Nana that much (not without a maneuver or two). burning all Ashurs in play and in hand as a side-effect could though. gosh, i really hate MMPA

and Anson would just catch this vote with 2nd Tradition anyway, then .44 + pursuit like everyone has seen a kazillion times.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 13:20:52 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: jamesatzephyr http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48846 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48846 Ohlmann wrote:
A vote that reveal the hand of target player and make him burn one pool, plus one pool per master ?


It feels a bit too hosery and silver bullet-ish. I like the "put this on a vampire / if they are ready" sort of card, because it instantly opens up options for interaction - "I'll rush him if you...", "I'll Banish him if you...", as well as the MMPA deck being able to diversify a little into that sort of tech itself. It's also relatively weak against other decks.

So maybe make it a little more powerful against other decks, and a little less powerful against many master decks. Say:

Some Name
Political Action, Requires a titled vampire
Choose a Methuselah. If this referendum is successful, that Methuselah burns 2 pool and reveals the contents of their hand to all players. If that Methuselah has X (4? 3?) or more master cards in their hand, you may then choose to have that player burn X (2? 1?) additional pool or, alternatively, discard X (2? 3?) cards at random (other Methuselahs do not see the replacements). Only one Some Name may be played per turn.


2 damage + reveal feels less awful compared to 3 damage from KRC (+1 that might be going somewhere else), while the card can't do 7 or 8 damage in one go.

It still feels a bit "off" to me, though.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 12:53:29 +0000 Subject: Re: What print-on-demand COULD mean - by: johannes http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48835 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/47909-what-print-on-demand-could-mean?limit=10&start=30#48835
- Being a playtester for a whole expansion is a responsibility. You can´t just go on a forum and blurp your ideas whenever you feel like it. You need to participate in multiple rounds, play games and provide structured and useful feedback. This requires a certain amount of organization and we want each group to give their own unbiased feedback, which gets correlated by Hugh and then passed on to the design team. So this is not going to change, however I highlight again the fact that application to be a playtesting group is open and so far (to my knowledge) no one has been denied participation.

- Pascal decided to start an open playtest program to test many different version of Lilith´s Blessing 2.0. He will be forthcoming with the details soon.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 07:25:59 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: ReverendRevolver http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48816 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48816 Ohlmann wrote:
A vote that reveal the hand of target player and make him burn one pool, plus one pool per master ?

MMPA deck have a lot of master, so it work like a Neonate Breach on them, but against other deck it's still an half decent damage vote and a way to see their hand.


And to really screw someone whos deck has alreqdy crapped too many green cards into thier hands.

Could be done tho, i suppose.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 21 May 2013 02:01:58 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48815 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48815
MMPA deck have a lot of master, so it work like a Neonate Breach on them, but against other deck it's still an half decent damage vote and a way to see their hand.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 22:26:14 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: jamesatzephyr http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48808 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48808 Boris The Blade wrote:
But contrary to your proposal, Kaymakli Fragment:
- is free,
- has no effect in combat,
- has requirements to use.


Yeah, true. I threw the ability together in about 30 seconds.

But could the principle of a piece of unique equipment or a unique retainer (or something similar) that gives you +1 awesome and anti-MMPA tech work better than a unique master? I think possibly yes - if a decent positive effect can be found.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 21:44:47 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Boris The Blade http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48799 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48799 jamesatzephyr wrote:
(The idea of stealable equipment taken from Kaymakli Fragment.)

But contrary to your proposal, Kaymakli Fragment:
- is free,
- has no effect in combat,
- has requirements to use.

The MAoD is a much more tempting target to steal, and much more difficult to use without risking it stolen. It would take Immortal Grapple or dedicated long range combat to play safely.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 18:48:38 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: jamesatzephyr http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48791 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48791 Jussi wrote:
How about temporary punishing someone with extra master phase actions?

Credibility Issues
Type: Unique Master
Master: trifle.
Give this card to any Metusaleah. You still control this card. Metusaleah with this card pays one extra pool for a master card he plays after the first while this card is in play. Burn this card during your untap phase.



For most non-many-master decks, your master phase is quite precious, and I'd be concerned that a purely hoser card like this would be annoyingly detrimental. Yes, you've hurt your wildly master card playing prey, but you lost the ability to play some other master card that was going to let you defend against your predator etc.

Also, though - and this applies to both the original idea and the card I suggested - a unique master card is, perhaps, easy enough for a many-master deck to contest itself. You play Credibility Issues against me. During my master phase, I play it against you (contesting your copy as I do so). Perhaps a piece of unique equipment or a retainer would be interesting.

Mystical Artifact of Doom
Unique Equipment, 2 pool
This vampire has +1 strength and may prevent one damage per combat. When this vampire is ready, if a vampire has a special ability that provides additional master phase actions, that abiilty is ignored. Any minion opposing this vampire in combat may steal the Mystical Artifact of Doom as a strike.


(The idea of stealable equipment taken from Kaymakli Fragment.)

The idea (hope) would be that this is possibly less easily contestable by the many-master deck - you get the option of blocking the action, say.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 17:45:11 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: AaronC http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48785 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48785
Direwold's card idea is already better than any suggestion for a card that *only* hoses MMPA, and I'm suprised that players don't understand that.

In this brave new world, if you want a new card to hose something, it should also give you a material and general benefit. It's easy to create a card to hose something that becomes deadweight in your deck. Unless you're pushing yourself to create a hoser that will probably not become deadweight, your ideas are not that interesting.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 16:46:27 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: ReverendRevolver http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48774 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48774 Jussi wrote:
How about temporary punishing someone with extra master phase actions?

Credibility Issues
Type: Unique Master
Master: trifle.
Give this card to any Metusaleah. You still control this card. Metusaleah with this card pays one extra pool for a master card he plays after the first while this card is in play. Burn this card during your untap phase.

---

I think, that the idea in it's current form is just a minor hoser against trifles and MMPAs - and would be used rather seldom. I wanted to share the idea anyway.

I didn't want to make the card more powerful (like being non unique, increasing master card cost by 2 pool or increase cost for every master cards), since it seemed to be too powerful then.


Too weak to matter. True, its not overpowered, but its less good than blindspot, which is already a just barely playable wallpaper card.

If it goes away in a turn, and eats up even a trifle slot, make the damn thing like using a pinecone as toilet paper for mmpa decks. They get like a billion master phases, so they lets say villien nana for 6, play liquidation, tap parthenon and use nana to drop 2 ashurs and make them go off if they had one out. They dont even notice this 1 pool tax you implimented for a turn, because they were going to play tablets o optimize thier deck anyway and theystill gain the pool from liquidation and villein.
Up it to 2-3 pool for using any minion or location source of gaining an extra master. Or make it permanent, with a clause that the methuselah may burn it by revealing cards from the top of thier library until 7 master cards are revealed. Those cards are removed frm the game, and the other cards get shuffled back in.


OR

Put a penalty on a resource harder to replace. Make them have -4 hand size, and make this card deal 2 unpreventable agg to any vampire they control without fortitude (lets say its part of them regaining credibility when this card burns) since yoi control the card, you pick, so presumeably nana, anson, etc gets hit, and its not broken against all decks due to fortitude clause.
This way, you ztill only tax them 3 pool out of alot gained, but you also make them discard several xards, working with limited cards in hand until yourxnext turn, and even when they redraw andxarwnt taxed, yiu deprive them of a minion. Plus you have a whole turn to knock beads off of or torp a key minion, so 2 agg makez them pay 8 or whatever to get thier star back oiut.

On a non girls deck, lets say anson celerity guns, it matters, but doesnt wreck them.
Even non combat non fortitude, like nossie royalty, can cope and prevent a justicar from being made crispy by blocking. Most decks get jammed and could usd the hand cycling. It could be a problem if ks stealthbleed uses it on itself, moving a bunch of cards and burning lets say midget who is tapped and or out of blood to replay said vamp, but its still a low resource turn.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 14:51:52 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Jussi http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48765 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48765
Credibility Issues
Type: Unique Master
Master: trifle.
Give this card to any Metusaleah. You still control this card. Metusaleah with this card pays one extra pool for a master card he plays after the first while this card is in play. Burn this card during your untap phase.

---

I think, that the idea in it's current form is just a minor hoser against trifles and MMPAs - and would be used rather seldom. I wanted to share the idea anyway.

I didn't want to make the card more powerful (like being non unique, increasing master card cost by 2 pool or increase cost for every master cards), since it seemed to be too powerful then.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 10:42:53 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48752 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48752 direwolf wrote:

Anarch Convert disagrees.


Having multiple anarch convert serve a purpose, but here it's an unique minion that stay on table to do its deed.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 06:44:53 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: ReverendRevolver http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48751 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48751
1. Why cripple the standard trifle, master, move on to minion phase stuff by making more than a single master penalized? Maybe " each methuselah may only use one master phase action a turn, or 1 trifle and 1 master phase acfion".

2. Thematically, how does a thinblood make it harder for a methuselah to directly manipulate things? And event feels more practical. Like this:

Brave new world
Event.

Do not replace this card until a vampire with capacity greater than 8 goes to torpor. While this card is in play, no Methuslah may gain additional master phases from any non trifle source. A methuselah can only play one trifle a turn.
Vampires with capacity greater than 2 but less than 6 maybe burn a blood once each turn to get +1 intercept against an older vampire.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 06:05:14 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48750 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48750 Ohlmann wrote:
I kind of prefer the Jamesatzephyr version, because it's easier to find a master in your library than a vampire in your crypt.


Anarch Convert disagrees.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:
Why not make it a minion trait?


It would work if it were "ANY" group. Thematically it might work as an ally, such as a Dhampir or thin-blooded vampire, rather than a crypt card.

"Connor, Angel of Gehenna"

2
Unique dhampir. 2 life, 1 strength, 1 bleed. Connor may play cards that require basic Fortitude or Obeah as a vampire. While Connor is ready, each Methuselah's master phase, master cards after the first cost an additional pool.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 20 May 2013 05:35:19 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48746 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48746
What do you thing of the hosing becoming 'you must tap a vampire to actually gain the MPA' rather than ignoring it outright ?]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 22:25:29 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Juggernaut1981 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48745 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48745
Lincoln, Prophet of the End Times
Caitiff
Capacity: 2

When Lincoln is ready, Methuselahs must pay 1 pool to use Master Phase Actions which are not provided by successfully playing a Trifle. Bloodhunts are not called for diablerising Lincoln. -1 bleed.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 21:43:06 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: jamesatzephyr http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48743 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48743 Ashur wrote:
As a fix I would rather see a couple of cards that remove peoples MMPA:s, not make more MMPA:s for everyone. IMHO.


I actually quite like the thrust of the card, in that it's something that's potentially eminently playable for its own sake. Even if no-one else on the table ever does anything more exciting than play Ascendance, you've got a decent card out of it. A pure hoser is much less likely to see play.

I'm not wild about the positive side of the card being "I get more master phase actions", but I think this sort of card would be pretty decent. Say if it was something else instead, like +1 bleed. Say something like:

Herald of the Apocalypse
Unique Master, 2 pool (1, some?)
Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire has +1 bleed. If this vampire votes against a referendum (even if this vampire has zero votes), he or she casts two additional votes against the referendum. When this vampire is ready, if any vampire has a special ability that grants an additional master phase action, that special ability is ignored.


Or something with two (or more) "Tap to..." abilities - one that gives you something decent for yourself, and one that lets you screw with MMPA in some fashion.

Or an Event that you played for its own sake, but which also burned The Parthenon when it was played, or flipped it over while the Event was in play, or something.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 21:11:50 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48740 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48740 Juggernaut1981 wrote:
Well, changing it to be "a player may have at most two master phase actions" doesn't actually stop trifles.

Trifle (uses a MPA but gives an MPA if successfully played)
Default MPA
Bonus MPA from Anson/Nana/Parthenon/etc.


So, you have 3 MPA, and the rule prevent you from gaining the third one, in essence making the trifle not giving you a MPA. I don't get it.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 16:55:25 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Juggernaut1981 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48732 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48732
Trifle (uses a MPA but gives an MPA if successfully played)
Default MPA
Bonus MPA from Anson/Nana/Parthenon/etc.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 10:49:27 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Izaak http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48731 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48731 If a fix would be required (which I still don't think is the case), the most elegant way is to just do it in the rules. Limit the amount of masters per turn to 2. Vampires like Anson and Nana would just mean you could play two non-trifle masters instead of trifle+regular or trifle+trifle.

That would make Nana pretty bad though.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 10:34:06 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: kombainas http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48722 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48722
Narrow Minds
Event
Inconnu. Do not replace until your untap phase.
Minion cards that change the target of a bleed cost an additional blood or life.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 08:01:08 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ashur http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48721 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48721 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 07:51:12 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48720 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48720
Non-MMPA deck tend to not have use for additional MPA, especially since to use MPA you need deckspace for thoses master. At best, this one will stabilize Girls deck, and help Red List decks. Which isn't exactly something I want for the future of the game.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 07:42:11 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: Franz http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48710 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48710
If anything, I'd add a clause so it can also hose The Parthenon (something simple, like "If this vampire is ready, when The Parthenon is put into play, burn it") preventing this to be the new "MMPA deck staple card". If you have this, you have 2 masters, everyone else got 1 (unless they got Rumor's of Gehenna, but that one is not that much problematic) and that's it... not 1 trifle and another 3 masters each turn as it stands now.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sun, 19 May 2013 04:00:48 +0000 Subject: Re: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: porphyrion http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48700 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48700 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 23:26:16 +0000 Subject: A yet to be unpopular "fix" for MMPA - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48688 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48688-a-yet-to-be-unpopular-qfixq-for-mmpa?limit=10&start=20#48688 Unique Master.
2
Put this card on a ready vampire you control above 7 capacity. While this vampire is ready, you get two master phase actions (instead of one) each master phase. Other vampires do not increase the number of master phase actions of his or her controller.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 20:01:34 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: ReverendRevolver http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48680 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48680


And liquidation.

Girls style decks are still winning, just like they did before liliths was banned. Reinstate a modified liliths and make this the new parthenon, maybe meta will return to normal......]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 13:13:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: Charles_Bronson http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48679 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48679 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 13:04:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: Pendargon http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48677 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48677 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 12:36:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: self biased http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48675 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48675 yeah, it seems a bit pricey for a pool and a card slot. either ditch the pool cost, or go as blackday suggests and give it multiple, finite uses.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 12:34:31 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: blackday http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48674 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48674 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 12:24:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Submission - Long-term plan - by: kombainas http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48673 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48673 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 12:02:57 +0000 Subject: Submission - Long-term plan - by: Ankha http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48669 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48669-submission-long-term-plan#48669 Name: Long-term plan
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Put this card into play, tapped. Tap and burn during your master phase to have 2 master phase actions instead of 1 this turn.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Sat, 18 May 2013 11:18:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: jamesatzephyr http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48533 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48533 Ohlmann wrote:
That kind of mechanism is strong ; I can understand concern of giving another version to a clan that already have strong asset in this area, especially since it may slow down the game.


I'd probably be less wary of giving it to a clan that's a bit weaker. Someone a bit more obscure.

Ohlmann wrote:
Also, it's a good card for a camarilla clan, and camarilla clans are pretty advantaged already with their inner Circle, and the prince-related cards.


I'm not sure the Tremere get all that much out of their Princes or Justicars. Some of them are decent, but none of them strike me as being as sexy as, say, Anson, Rachel Brandywine, any of the Group 1/2 Brujah Princes, Anneke, Tara etc.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Wed, 15 May 2013 16:46:58 +0000 Subject: Round 3 Playtest for the PCK Laibon Set has begun! - by: Jeff Kuta http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48532-round-3-playtest-for-the-pck-laibon-set-has-begun#48532 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48532-round-3-playtest-for-the-pck-laibon-set-has-begun#48532
I am happy to announce that Round 3 of Playtest for the PCK Laibon Set has begun. If you are interested in participating, please contact Carl Pilhatsch, Eric Chiang and Jeff Kuta at This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it . Visit our blog at pckvtes.wordpress.com for updates and more information.

Thanks for your time and interest,

Jeff
(on behalf of Carl, Eric and Jeff)]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Wed, 15 May 2013 16:45:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: Izaak http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48505 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48505
It's open to abuse by a crypt of (for example) all 3-caps and a library with a good supply of Master: Discipline cards.


You can already do this with dominate and 3-caps, which is more efficient as you can just play 20 Governs and bleed with the extra's. Dominate Crypt machine is probably one of the most hated decks, but it's not like it's posting tournament results because it's a 1-VP deck.

With the card being unique I don't think it's even remotely too powerful and I think the idea has merit.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 14 May 2013 19:17:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48504 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48504 Molloy wrote:
direwolf wrote:


While I agree mid and low caps can make great use of the card, but it is not better suited for them. It encourages a varied crypt. It also dictates the order in which you bring out your vampires if you want to make the most out of it.

It would work just as well in a crypt made up of 10-9-8-7 capacity Tremere.


It's open to abuse by a crypt of (for example) all 3-caps and a library with a good supply of Master: Discipline cards.


Yep, you could use group 3 with group 2 or 4 tremere and tremere antitribue of capacity 3 or less.

You could also say the same about having a crypt of 3 cap with basic dominate and a bunch of dominate master cards.

I fail to see how that is any less abusive.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 14 May 2013 19:16:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: Molloy http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48502 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48502 direwolf wrote:


While I agree mid and low caps can make great use of the card, but it is not better suited for them. It encourages a varied crypt. It also dictates the order in which you bring out your vampires if you want to make the most out of it.

It would work just as well in a crypt made up of 10-9-8-7 capacity Tremere.


It's open to abuse by a crypt of (for example) all 3-caps and a library with a good supply of Master: Discipline cards.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 14 May 2013 15:26:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48491 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48491 kombainas wrote:
2) A Tremere lacking superior dominate can use it.


Then the card idea is misrepresented. It was designed to represent rigid structure of the clan, but this way midcap to lowcap vampires would use it the most, not these big guys supposedly interested in keeping the things they are.


While I agree mid and low caps can make great use of the card, but it is not better suited for them. It encourages a varied crypt. It also dictates the order in which you bring out your vampires if you want to make the most out of it.

It would work just as well in a crypt made up of 10-9-8-7 capacity Tremere.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 14 May 2013 05:30:18 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: kombainas http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48490 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48490 2) A Tremere lacking superior dominate can use it.

Then the card idea is misrepresented. It was designed to represent rigid structure of the clan, but this way midcap to lowcap vampires would use it the most, not these big guys supposedly interested in keeping the things they are.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Tue, 14 May 2013 02:12:48 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: Close Quarters Tactics - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48488 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48488 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 13 May 2013 23:45:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: direwolf http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48487 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48487 Klaital wrote:
I have just one question about this card, exactly why would anyone play it with a clan that has access to Govern the Unaligned also?


1) There is a benefit to slave status.
2) A Tremere lacking superior dominate can use it.

It's not intended to replace govern. It's a card you might put one or two of in a deck. It fits the lore of the game.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 13 May 2013 23:39:59 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: tremere bond - by: Klaital http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48485 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48390-card-idea-tremere-bond?limit=10&start=10#48485 Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 13 May 2013 22:50:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: Close Quarters Tactics - by: Klaital http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48484 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48484
Although I suppose could add a further limitation to the prevent to make it only usable at close range, or non-ranged strikes.]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 13 May 2013 22:47:43 +0000 Subject: Re: Card Idea: Close Quarters Tactics - by: Ohlmann http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48483 http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/48430-card-idea-close-quarters-tactics?limit=10&start=10#48483
I mean, Claw of the dead is mainly used as a cheaper decapitate, while Breath of the Dragon and all the other ranged aggravated for 1 blood are average at best. On the other hand, Carrion Crow, which have been put of limit by design too, is arguably the better combat card of the current game. Should we yet again stack odds in favor of Carrion and against Breath and co ?]]> Expansion Sets & Card Ideas Mon, 13 May 2013 22:12:25 +0000