[quote="Izaak" post=31054]

Well, it´s a fact - not all players have the Tablets.

Izaak wrote:

What you describe is not how Infernal-Anson works (http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2012ecqbuk)

What you describe is not how Kiasyd-sb works nowadays (http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2012gmgs)

What you describe is not Nana-potence (http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2011ecday2

Try playing these decks, and try playing against them with non-MMPA-decks, you might understand the problem better.

Nightbringer wrote:

Maybe my example was a bit to the extreme, but I absolutely think casual playing must be considered, and I know the design team agree.

I don´t think it´s good that the gap between newbie-style-decks and top tier-decks gets any wider, it will make the learning curve impossible to climb.

This game worked very good without the MMPA-bonanza from later years. At least, if it´s the designers intent to boost MMPA-decks, make also the appropriate counter measures.

Ashur wrote:


Well of course I understand that, which is why I asked you about that specifically. Do you understand how to comprehend what you've read? Do you understand that obnoxious questions like that are not conducive to discussion?

Great, now that that is out of the way, I will point out that all the same complaints you are making now have been made in the past about these other decks. That is my point here. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean we should be skeptical and not just make changes right away.

Ashur wrote:


I haven't been playing enough lately to see any shifts, but of course the metagame will shift. It always shifts. People will realize that their old decks aren't really doing it anymore and will tweak them and build new decks and a new pacing will emerge. This always happens.

Ashur wrote:


I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. Nobody is saying it is a mystery. It's actually quite obvious and easily explained. These decks have numerous weaknesses that aren't being exploited right now and in turn perfectly exploit a current popular style of play.

vtesocrates wrote:

And I say these weaknesses are not enough.

Sudden, Wash, Bleeding, Erciyes, Seeds, Uncoiling aren´t enough. Trochomancy is in a (kind of) rare discipline. Rush/minion-removal is too weak as concept (crater-playing).

Big cap vote is better with MMPA and Tablets, sb is better with MMPA and Tablets, rush combat is better with MMPA and Tablets, wall decks are better with MMPA and Tablets. And so on.

Note also : I´ve never been for banning Pentex, Lilith´s, DI or even PTO. I was against imbued, but that was mainly because I think playing imbued was so radically different from playing Vtes. I don´t like being associated with those people that want to ban and alter everything. But now it´s time to do _something_.

Or Mind Rapes. Or Summon History. Or Unleash Hell's Fury. Or Parity Shift. Or Derange. Availability of cards is not an argument why cards are too strong.



As you may or may not be aware I was actually in those very finals playing against that deck. I also played against it in one of the prelims the same day. I also played it myself during day 1 of the EC2010 in Paris.

It works *exactly* how I describe it. A Sudden slows you down to the point where 2-3 Suddens on the right cards slow you down enough that you probably won't make the gamewin unless someone messes up real bad.

In this specific case you mentioned the player playing the deck wouldn't actually have won the game (and with it become 2011's champion) if his predator wouldn't have allowed him to play 12 combat cards in the last round of the game (drawing into *exactly* enough +bleed to get a VP before timing).



Except, it is not. It's different and more geared towards sitting tight, tuning its deck for 90 minutes and letting someone die.

As vtesocrates correctly pointed out, Ashur recursion decks exploit a weakness in the metagame where nobody wants to make a move before the 1:30 mark. Start moving forward faster and see how good their cardflow is. I'll give you a hint: it will stink.

There is a difference between weenie presence and a fast deck. If your playgroup and you think Vignes should be catagorized with weenie presence I don't know what to say. Last time I checked midcap S/B is still around and works just fine against Ashur based decks. Any Lawfirm type of deck completely destroys the ani rush based variant.

Maybe, just maybe, you should actually try and play these decks instead of theorycrafting up a bunch of arguments and throwing this forum full of nonsense.

Cos, ya know, I play them and I play against them a fair amount and yes, it's good. It's even great, like dementation and lawfirm are great. Is it broken? I don't think so.

And yes, sometimes it stoppes you dead cold like sometimes a No Secrets stops you cold. Or you get oisted in 5 turns because you wanted to bring out an 11-cap from position #2 and your predator is play Lagacy of Pander. But that's what happens.

the first ashur decks that i remember seeing were slimmed-down anson+celerity+guns and they used ashurs to recur combat cards mainly, so that they could run 70ish-82 cards and not worry about the decks being too thin. i like the tablets in that sort of a roll. i still run them in that sort of a roll.

the girls decks use them to recur masters at will among other things. no other deck that has generated heat from players has been as largely broken. tupdogs i have NEVER had a problem with, diary i've been ousted by for sure, but it was when i was playing a deck that had little to no table answers (samedi with dead hookers or malk 94...). tupdogs are strong, but other combat can smoke them easily (akunanse, nos, gangrel, brujah... if you can put out damage with potence, celerity, and or animalism and have some prevent, you can wreck tupdogs. if you steal a tupdog, the tempo of their deck goes to crap fast)

i'm a huge fan of ashur tablets. i'm a fan of anson with guns with ashurs, i'm a fan of ferox gargolye comabt with ashurs, i'm a fan of everything other than mmpa decks with ashurs. generic recursion should be something nec has (since it sucks horribly at everything but making zombies, having spot stealth/intercept/block denial or ending combat[and earth meld is still the best s:ce]) but sudario isn't necro, its giovanni, and outside of that clan, there should be recursion.

combat likes recursion. walls like recursion. decks stuck at a table with constant revolution/slaughterhouse garbage like recursion, especially if they are combat and can easily run out of cards by playing them.

but the mmpa decks get trifle, regular mpa, minion generated mpa, possibly another minion generated mpa, then parthenon mpa. thats enough to do all sorts of bloating and recurring nonsense. in fact, they only need one more and they can liquidate twice and the pop 3 ashurs ina turn.
its not THAT clunky to play, if your hand jams its less of a problem with that deck since even key cards can get recurred.

i doubt anything will be done errata wise without a huge amount of consideration (and probably not until the girls decks take even more tournaments) but i'm not even opposed to the tablets, i'm just opposed to them recurring master cards or events, and being able to play multiples in a turn.
really, my biggest problem is the fact that you can opo the tablets more than once per methuselah.
if you can't have the absolute most optimal library by mid-game after putting back in 12 cards that were in your ash heap (probably pot stealth/intercept/bleed enhancement/combat/burned ally) and one to the hand, what deck are you playing and why? girls decks don't need to worry as much about things when every few turns can mean another liquidation and ashurs.
if the tablets only worked once per methuselah, they'd be less of a problem.
i'm more in favor of weakening them than banning them, since they would have value even without the mmpa girls decks abusing them (and they still were a very expensive common before girls took spotlight at tournaments).

but arguing over if an archetype that is that durable and has that many wins is good/ broken is kinda redundent. i play combat, and combat doesn't automatically beat girls. metagaming isn't the issue, the abuse of masters and the flow of the deck is.

Ashur wrote:


Glad you know so much about my knowledge of the game and these forums.

My point isn't that X card(s) = Ashur Tablets/MMPA. My point is that I have seen quite a few different things come up along the way in VTES about things being OP, people clamoring for a card to get banned or altered (like the ones I mentioned), and there are few times where it is warranted. The Imbued who were brought into a game when operating on their own mechanics screwed things over a little and with the two cards gone that really gave them an edge (no pun intended) the game was much more balanced.

To continue this theme if we made a text change or banned a card every time someone thought it should be done and found something annoying then our landscape would be much different (again, cards like Parity Shift, Pentex, etc.). Some would think for the better and for the majority they would be saying not to change it. Keep in mind only so many people visit these forums. And to be honest I am more concerned about keeping people rather than introducing more difficulties or changes in the game at this point. And yes, give enough changes to a now defunct game and you risk shedding a few players.

MMPA decks may be annoying, but it isn't like they aren't beatable. I have never had an issue facing one. Not even annoying versions you have mentioned. And like any other tables that declare someone an issue (Imbued Table Poison, Malk 94, etc.), people tend to work together to solve such issues. So your point that it imbalances a game to have play to against them that way is moot.

Further, as someone else pointed out Ashur Tablets are used in decks that don't do the whole MMPA trick with Anthelios/Master tricks. Recycling what you need such as combat, intercept, stealth, and so on doesn't need to turn into an Evil MMPA deck. Heck, Nana and Anson decks with combat don't have to do that. And looking at various tournament wins in the TWDA I see plenty of tournaments won that are not the Evil MMPA referenced in this forum. Using Ahsurs doesn't automatically make a deck MMPA nor does it mean it will be Girls, etc.

I simply would not be convinced at this point (nor likely the future) that something needs to happen at this moment as there is no good answer that doesn't either drastically hose other decks or completely reduce/ban Ashur Tablets.

The Inner Circle would most likely have to have a unanimous agreement something needs to be done and that they have a way that will please the majority of people. And I don't see that happening either.

I get that you are discontent with the way things are and feel something should be done as it is your opinion to have. But, you cannot force others to believe what you do. And while that may not be your goal, it sometimes comes across that only your opinion counts as the truth. Not a good way to convince people.

Ashur wrote:

Is this the same Sweden that Isak just discussed in a recent C&E episode having following meta: little or no combat as well as little or no intercept, so no serious stealth is really needed?

Based on this I sure can understand your concern as people just seem to want to have therr cake and eat it too (ie. play their own deck which does its own thang) without actually diluting the brilliant concept behind it in order to be prepared for certain archetypes and such.

But banning/changing something that bothers your deck isn't really a good an option for the game. It seems that the trend in Sweden is to play only the few tier 1 decks and there ain't that many of those to begin with. Removing one archetype (MMPA) isn't going to help the game's diversity even on the short run

Lönkka wrote:


Whoever started that rumor forgot that there are more cities in Sweden than just Göteborg, Stockholm and Örebro. Where I come from you will often be shut down hard if you have little to none combat defense and/or stealth.

Chaitan wrote:



Sorry if I made it sound like I know what's going on in every playing group in the whole of Sweden. I were speaking about those casual play group I have played in and the tournament scene. I don't know much about the Malmö/Copenhagen cooperation, but it's more or less Denmark down there anyways

But Lönkka's post is still relevant. You have to try to abuse the meta and the weaknesses of different deck to really improve you chances.