VEKN - Forum

Subject: Re: Don't Believe Her - by: Reyda

Wed, 19 Jun 2013 23:18:11 +0000

I play daughters from day one, and I must admit i have a soft spot for decks like this one

however, I would change some stuff to make it better.

In a nutshell.
Crypt : I would swap one angela and one Gael for 2 copies of gr3 Yseult, which has all sup inclans + a formidable cycling special that will help you oust or resist. More variety for the crypt !

Master : Blood dolls are nice, but i will remove one in favor of humanitas, which is really really good in a daughter deck. I would also remove a second blood doll to have a giant blood there (mainly to play it before the others)

Action : seems ok !

Political action :
Benefit performance is crappy compared to con boon for two reasons.
1- it does only count ready daughters. That means, if half of your cool girls band is dunked, you will gain half the pool.
2- it only works on daughter, so no cross table help nor deal. Strategically bad for you.
so, make it 6 con boon instead !
Also, you can cut on one Reckless. 2 is quite enough actually.
Lily prelude is da bomb, keep em all.
KRC is fine ! especially since Delaying tactics can ruin a perfectly planned turn.

Modifiers : Your deck is already gaining pool like crazy I would remove 1 or 2 voter cap, and maybe one missing voice, and try to make room for Echo of harmonies. If you don't have the votelock, it helps you passing vote. If you have it, you can pummel the same vote again and again on your prey. It's really a win/win card.

Combat :
I'll probably keep all those majesties, but remove 2 or 3 rolling with the punches.

If you want the super invicibility cheat code, my best advice would be : Add a single copy of Signet of the king saul. It makes star blockers weep tears of blood, and once it's in place, cannot be direct'ed. I won nearly all the games I played with a similar deck once the Signet was equipped.

Subject: Re: Don't Believe Her - by: TorranceCircle

Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:03:01 +0000

Somehow the description portion got cut when I transferred from secret library. The deck list was influenced by Ben Peal's Angellore (Live in L.A.).

I don't have many copies of the cards for Daughters. Siren's Lure is hard to get if you don't want to pay a lot. I thought it would be interesting to try Virtuosa in its place and use Voter Cap to recoup some or all of the cost. I've never had crypt jam with 2,2,2,3,3 set up. I will try it and see if I need wider view. I like agent of power, but I have used it before in a Mex City Circle deck and it was not that good. I will try it though, because I like the card (and the artwork).

Subject: Re: Don't Believe Her - by: Ohlmann

Wed, 19 Jun 2013 20:02:59 +0000

Nice deck.

The only suggestion I would have would be to add some Wider View (to avoid crypt jam) in x1-4. You don't have trifle master yet, so this is almost painless. You could also mix some Life In The City or Agent of Power ; the first one is likely superfluous buy rarely wasted, the second help your midcap to have the superior bonus of Lily Prelude or Virtuosa, and/or allow an Embrace to call a Lily Prelude.

Subject: Don't Believe Her - by: TorranceCircle

Wed, 19 Jun 2013 19:28:30 +0000

I was listening to the Scorps' yesterday. I thought back to that night in '83. I had been to the US Festival and I was lucky (or not, depending on how you look at it) because the Scorpions added some dates to there own tour. Vortex was opening for them.

Vortex was the hot new metal band from L.A and this was their first concert tour. Five rockin' babes that could blow the lid off any venue. "Prelude" was the opening track on their just released album "Lily". Celeste played guitar and backed up on vocals. Muse played base. Delilah Monroe knocked it out on drums and could even make John Bonham jealous. Gael Pilet was on vocals. Sometimes they called her "Sweet." When I asked the girls backstage "why?", they all said, "She has a voice so sweet she can make angels cry!"

But it was Angie, Angela Preston, who always stole the show. She could shred on the guitar like no one I've ever seen, before or since. The girls told me she hand picked me out of the crowd. She swore she didn't point me out to a member of their entourage to pull me backstage. The other girls all said she always lies about those things. But I didn't care. Backstage with Vortex! Awesome!

I met Klaus and Matthias backstage. Rudolph and the other Scorpions were still rockin' on stage, waiting for Klaus and Matthias to come back out for the encore. They said, "Who are you?" I told them I was their biggest fan. And that Angela Preston had invited me backstage to visit with Vortex. Klaus laughed. He looked a Matthias and said, "Even with a perfect stranger, she knows the game." Then he turned to me with a grim look saying, "She'll promise Heaven on Earth. But Don't Believe Her!"

What a night. That year, Vortex reached number 3 on the charts. They were everywhere. I went on MTV with Angie and Gael. Martha Quinn couldn't figure out what I was doing there. Angie just said, "Yseult is our road manager. You know, she makes sure our needs are taken care of on tour." Then they disappeared, never to be seen again. At least, not in public.

Deck Name: Don\'t Believe Her
Author:
Description:
DoC breed and vote

Crypt (Capacity min=3 max=6 avg=4.42; 12 cards)
==================================================
3x Angela Preston 5 for PRE MEL Daughter of Cacophony:2
2x Céleste, The Voice of a Secret 3 pre mel Daughter of Cacophony:2
2x Delilah Monroe 4 for pre MEL Daughter of Cacophony:2
3x Gaël Pilet 6 chi pre FOR MEL Daughter of Cacophony:2
2x Muse 3 ani for mel Daughter of Cacophony:2

Library (82 cards)
=====================
Master (17 cards)
1x Bastille Opera House
6x Blood Doll
3x Conductor
2x Creepshow Casino
2x Direct Intervention
1x Paris Opera House
2x Sudden Reversal

Action (11 cards)
7x Embrace, The
4x Entrancement

Political Action (18 cards)
6x Benefit Performance
3x Kine Resources Contested
6x Lily Prelude
3x Reckless Agitation

Action Modifier (22 cards)
7x Missing Voice, The
4x Siren's Lure
5x Virtuosa
6x Voter Captivation

Combat (14 cards)
7x Majesty
7x Rolling with the Punches

Created with Secret Library v0.9.4a. (Jun 19, 2013 21:37:18)

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: Azel

Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:35:57 +0000

kombainas wrote:

Add Psyches. Good against S:CE, you can still use your weaps and keep fighting for until you drop dead or punch through.

How did we forget about that? Good call.

How's the pool management situation. Those 2nd Trads seem mostly for targeting your Anathemas, usually your prey. How's your pool bloating?

Subject: Re: The Camarilla Does it Better - by: ReverendRevolver

Thu, 06 Jun 2013 05:18:38 +0000

Oh, and good luck, id like to see this in the twda. Unlesz it ousts me at finals, of course.

Subject: Re: The Camarilla Does it Better - by: ReverendRevolver

Thu, 06 Jun 2013 05:17:42 +0000

Dude, i used to run like 4 varients of this deck.

I agree with klaital nominally.

Add: ephor, papillion, 44 mag, rack, and maybe perfect paragon.

Id drop soak in facor of something that stops agg. Drop: elysium, coven, 1 dominate kine, reinforcements, all redirection.

Add some deflection, target vitals, maybe 2 tastes. Maybr make 1 kiss of ra into something else. Bonding is your friend. With a lineup of princes, id up the parity shifts to like 3.

Crypt: add lodin. Hes your owain. Trust me, if you are blocking, getting beat on, hes awesome. Ive ran a stairstep from maryanne to castellein to lodin to graham to donaldson to pelletier. I never disliked lodin flipping. Muktar bey is also shockingly handy in this setup if you add some enchants and drop 2-3 scoutings.

Subject: Re: The Camarilla Does it Better - by: Klaital

Thu, 06 Jun 2013 01:29:01 +0000

I would replace elysium and hostile takeover with Island of Yiaros and Ephor, also taking in your blocky and fighty, coven would likely be better as the rack, and uptown hunting ground as papillon with all those titles. Some Entrancements would probably be good also, not fan of kiss of ra, it has bit too large opportunity cost (not to mention blood cost).

Subject: The Camarilla Does it Better - by: Franz

Wed, 05 Jun 2013 23:09:32 +0000

Deck Name: The Camarilla does it Better
Created By: Franz
Description: This deck led me to the final table in the Brazilian National Championship we had last weekend. The idea came from the many !Ventrue grinder decks that made to the TWD in the past and the fact that I don't own 8 eyes of argus. So I decided to assemble basically the same deck but exchange EoA for 2nd trads. All in all, with a crypt that can support this choice (9 out of 12 vampires can play 2nd trad), I felt untapping with 2 intercept is stronger than getting 2 intercept on a D action OR pseudo untapping. On the downside I loose the cool specials that Owain, Blackhorse and Neighbour John bring to the table. On the upside, I got a stronger untap and vote presence strong enough to have dedicated political decks strike deals with me if they want their votes to pass.

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 20, Max: 30, Avg: 6,16)
----------------------------------------------
2 Emily Carson for pre DOM 5 Ventrue
2 Graham Gottesman obf pre tha DOM FOR7 Ventrue
1 Joáo Bilé pre DOM FOR 5 Ventrue
2 Lodin (Olaf Holte) aus pro DOM FOR PRE8 Ventrue
2 Mustafa cel dom FOR PRE6 Ventrue
2 Victor Donaldson for pre DOM 6 Ventrue
1 Victor Pelletier cel dom for PRE5 Ventrue

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (15 cards)
1 Anarch Troublemaker
1 Coven, The
1 Direct Intervention
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Elysium: The Arboretum
1 Hostile Takeover
1 Pentex Subversion
1 Powerbase: Montreal
1 Uptown Hunting Ground
4 Vessel
1 Wider View

Action (13 cards)
2 Dominate Kine
7 Govern the Unaligned
4 Scouting Mission

Action Modifier (21 cards)
2 Bonding
4 Conditioning
2 Daring the Dawn
1 Foreshadowing Destruction
5 Freak Drive
2 Kiss of Ra, The
5 Seduction

Political Action (2 cards)
1 Parity Shift
1 Reinforcements

Reaction (20 cards)
6 Deflection
2 On the Qui Vive
4 Redirection
8 Second Tradition: Domain, The

Combat (19 cards)
2 Hidden Strength
4 Indomitability
5 Rolling with the Punches
4 Soak
4 Weighted Walking Stick

This deck was last saved at 00:03:18 on 01/06/2013

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: ReverendRevolver

Wed, 05 Jun 2013 07:04:45 +0000

You couod always go for broke with blood intensive crazyness, and use samedi of g23 or 34. Genina using mass reality and sense dep, and then having either macoute or george n jorge to swing the chainsaw.

Edit: also good oitlet for all those copies of groaning corpse everyones beem tryimg to use.....

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Timo

Tue, 04 Jun 2013 06:22:12 +0000

Ohlmann wrote:

Franz wrote:

It's really easier to just recruit ambrosius, tye cooper or ponticulus to absorb the chainsaw damage. I'd go with some of those and pack ex nihilo as a backup plan (as opposed the other way around), since that, if you are running giovanni chances are your guys will have necromancy.

That's perfectly right ; I have taken his post as "this is a wacky idea, can something come out of it ?"

It is!

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Ohlmann

Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:30:36 +0000

Franz wrote:

That's perfectly right ; I have taken his post as "this is a wacky idea, can something come out of it ?"

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Juggernaut1981

Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:57:20 +0000

I just tend to like chainsawing weenies into the Talbots and a Carver's Meat Packing so you can later ignore the Talbot's damage.

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Franz

Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:56:39 +0000

Subject: Re: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Ohlmann

Mon, 03 Jun 2013 19:09:53 +0000

Note that the one with the chainsaw don't need to be the one with the Ex Nihilo. You could for example have an Appius Corvius w/ Ex Nihilo, who can use Descent into darkness to regain blood, while another vampire cut people into piece with the chainsaw.

(Descent into Darkness is one of the very few way to gain blood under Ex Nihilo, maybe the only one. And since 2nd tradition exist, Appius using Descent into darkness at +3 stealth can avoid you being intercepted by tiresome eurobrujah princes for a somewhat vital action)

Subject: Could Ex Nihilo + talbot chainsaw make a viable deck? - by: Timo

Mon, 03 Jun 2013 15:48:38 +0000

It's been a while since I first thought of this : how to play ex nihilo and talbot chainsaw in good synergie?

Here are my main ideas :
Guruhi are the land with Eze :
The idea is a GatL deck where Eze tool up with magic of the smith then play ex nihilo and equip the chainsaw. Then him and little guruhi equip with the chainsaw and whatever there is in play, play GatL, rush and repeat. Eze can still do some damage with some carrion crows.

Trem/!trem featuring Goratrix :
Magic of the smth on sargon fragment, then ex nihilo and magic on talbot chainsaw. You play some theft and weather control to deal some damage and goratrix can use his special. With ex nihilo/talbot/ruins of ceoris, you can deal with 1 weather control an equivalent 12 unpreventable damage with goratrix. And you can play ponticulus with the trem supports for an other plan to deal with the chainsaw 3 damages.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: kombainas

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 06:24:05 +0000

Add Psyches. Good against S:CE, you can still use your weaps and keep fighting for until you drop dead or punch through.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: ReverendRevolver

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 05:52:08 +0000

self biased wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Sorry about the typos, my phone stopped autocorrecting after the last update.
Id like to hear how this deck does, as ive played against several, but none were built very well(not enough combat)

no worries. as i've said: the deck will fold to heavy fortitude or S:CE. my big error tonight was to allow a troublesome deck some breathing room against its predator, thinking that he'd harry my predator, rather than my prey. New Carthage was a huge boon to me. while costly, +vote and +bleed gives the deck the oomph. I would have been able to play one of the three anathemas i had in my hand at one point if i had let my prey do what he was doing, but such is the nature of hindsight.

Never forget new carthages vetrue-screwing text. Its hurt my lawfirm decks several times, making brujah able to pass votes even when i had 3 princes and a justicar....
And hindsight is the only clear view in vtes.
My first tournament, i di'd a kiss of ra, blocked successfully, and shot all the beads off my predators allstar. Had another pursuit in hand and didnt dunk tje vamp, because it was turn 5 and i didnt want to cripple my predator, as he was in my mimd a meat sheild. An hour and some change later, id missed a chance to oust my prey because i stayed on defense due to that minion, and he ousted me.

Hindsight, 20\20.
Also, dont trust your prey durinf finals, apparently......

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 05:13:42 +0000

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Sorry about the typos, my phone stopped autocorrecting after the last update.
Id like to hear how this deck does, as ive played against several, but none were built very well(not enough combat)

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 05:06:42 +0000

if it weren't for that, i would have torp'd Eric kressida. fifth turn.

deck needs more maneuvers, and possibly damage reduction.

the idea behind the deck is i hit once. ONCE. jaroslav or elihu with a forged chainsaw will hit for nine with brute force. which translates to six or seven for the other schmucks, depending on the availability of forger's hammer. additional strikes are neat, but i don't really have a hard-on for them.

the question is: what do i drop to include for fortitude cards?

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: ReverendRevolver

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 04:58:20 +0000

self biased wrote:

took the deck out for a spin and was able to get out Jaroslav, Adana, and Tomaine. my thaum/prot deck was my preadator, a sneak and bleed was my prey, and the assault rifle deck across from me. in retrospect, it was an error helping out cross table, as my grandprey recovered and blitzed the shit out of his preadator. Striking with weapons doesn't do shit versus blood rage.

@reverendrevolver: the typos make your posts difficult to interpret. though i do see your point about utilizing the fortitude. i'll probably play another game with the deck as it is and make tweaks from there.

Sorry about the typos, my phone stopped autocorrecting after the last update.
Id like to hear how this deck does, as ive played against several, but none were built very well(not enough combat)

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: TorranceCircle

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 04:28:44 +0000

Keep us updated! Blood Rage! AAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!!!

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 04:26:06 +0000

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: ReverendRevolver

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 04:02:37 +0000

self biased wrote:

I will be honest, I have no idea how iron glare slipped my mind.

@torrancecircle: I'm running forced march instead of freak drive.

I dont think yoir blood management is efficient enough to justify freak drive. Its not like pascek can rumble, anbushscks, your probably going to vote or bleex or rush, forced march, then do one of the two you didnt just do. Elihu can freak drive, but 6 cap needs beads to put a hurting on people.

I forfot this in the above post, but id go + enxhants, remove all 4th trad, and add 1 heart of the city and one intimidation. Bleed for 3, maybe pump with iron glare. What are they gonna do, block you and fight

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: ReverendRevolver

Sat, 01 Jun 2013 03:54:01 +0000

I have no idea why you arent running fortitude prevent. Or psyche. Or grapple. Does your meta nominally forget combat ever exists?
Im not sold on gas powered chainsaws. If there were some way to use talbots chainsaw, this deck would be terrifying. Maybe make benedict giovanni a supporter and add tye.
Or, as mentioned, bundi grappl. Or, j's axe, banshee ironwail, crimson sentinel, argent baton, etc unique melee weapons and possibly even disguising them out with pascek and heidleberging to elihu.

Also, why no tension or fame? Worried about tension hurting you, add fortitude prevent.
Maybe using perpetual care, since late game pascek could hypothetically torp anyone not willing to vote for it.

Ardana is not by any means my fqvorite 11 cap, but shes far from the worste. On par with Gwyndilen, because of better special but less optimal discipline spread (protean sucks. Fortitude, even at inferior, would have aerved better, especially with her special)
She bleeds hard, but shes not useful at all here. Turning her into benedict giovanni or lorrie dunsirn is a better plan. Or, if you want brujah all the way, maxwell and (obviously, just because hes f***¥¥ awesome) count germaine. Paying that much is pretty high, but 11 is out of the question, especially since she cant play 2nd trad. Maxwell can at least become prince then forced march at superior. Jann berger is also an option. Or weeniez.

Im still bafdled by your lack of fortitude prevent. Little fortitude is useful as hell, and not just for forced marching. Armor of vitality stifles animalism nonsense, and is your best bet here, from the looks of things. If you had issue with the assault rifles, maybe rethink your combat. Why flash? Pursuit. Maybe add sideslip. Lets say yiu have a bat. On elihu or pascek. Your opponent has an assault rifle. They go long. You go to close. Now, you could dodge with sideslip or prevent with skin of steel(neither of which you run, you currently suck 4 damage to the face) then pursuit an additional. You still do the same 2 strikes with your big swinger. But now its all in one turn. Decapitate the bastard if you can. Or maybe rip an arm off. Its just more logical to additional and drop the saws in favor of better weapons.

Lastly, there is a player in my playgroup who almost swears that he can talk the table into voting an archon to pass but never can for an alastor. He reminds them they can burn the archon later, then blocks the vote or rushes the voter. But you can always whore off an alastor and a piece of equipment to a crosstable.

If theres one thing that jumps out at me as needing changed here, its yoir combat. Add prevwnt. If your ok with sce always trumping you, thats all whatever. But you can make tablez fall wrong if yoir a combat deck who dies like nothing to Carna and an ivory bow and 2 apportation in hand. Or Anatole with a flamethrower and some swallowex by the night. Hell, both of those decks can probably prevent damage too. Its just embarassing to get rolled by 1 agg when you have fortitude. All bad.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Fri, 31 May 2013 13:42:18 +0000

I will be honest, I have no idea how iron glare slipped my mind.

@torrancecircle: I'm running forced march instead of freak drive.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Fri, 31 May 2013 13:39:46 +0000

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: drnlmza

Fri, 31 May 2013 10:31:43 +0000

You have 5 melee weapons , 1 Heart and 1 Al's in 90 cards, and you want to get use out of Jaroslav and Elihu's melee weapon bonus. I really don't see you getting your combo together reliably most games. I think you need either more weapons, a couple more copies of Al or some Vast Wealths to help you get setup. Possibly a Heidelberg so can hand weapons around easily.

I don't think you're going to be able to get Adana out very often, and you're be better served with a smaller CEL/POT/PRE minion.

I think you need some payload for ousting. Yes, if things work for you, you can destory a vampire with a single action, but then you have to nibble bleed to oust your prey. I'd try find space for 4 to 6 Iron Glares - useful for vote push to pass Athema and also gives you boosted bleed.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: Juggernaut1981

Fri, 31 May 2013 10:03:10 +0000

I still have a strong love for Archon over Alastor. Yes yes, I can hear the cries now BUT...

Archon has (in its favour for this deck:
1) No bloodhunts on diablerie (as opposed to no diablerie)
2) Vampires must burn one blood to attempt to block I have always found it a big disincentive to have to lose a blood to try block, then generate intercept and then when you do catch the Brujah/Nosferatu/Toreador Archon... they beat the living snot out of you and you were one blood easier to kill.

The only advantage I see from Alastor is it can give you equipment you wouldn't otherwise own... such as Ankara Citadel, Sword of Nuln, Living Wood Staff, Blood Shield, Shaal Fragment, Femur of Toomler (insert combat-gasm of Elihu or Jaroslav with the Femur!!!!)...

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: TorranceCircle

Fri, 31 May 2013 04:42:10 +0000

This deck looks like a lot of fun. A gas powered chainsaw striking for Seven has a coolness factor that's off the charts!!!
self biased wrote:

Earh Meld and Majesty laugh at your wasted effort.
yep. they sure do.

If your metagame has very little Strike combat ends then this is not a big deal. But any deck with 8 or 9 SCE will make you sad. If more than one deck with SCE shows up, your 2nd traditions and bum's rushes won't be enough in my opinion. (See my thoughts about your votes)

self biased wrote:

Did you consider Bundi/Immortal Grapple or Psyche!?
not really, no. convince me. gently. and kindly

self biased wrote:

Did you consider Alastor or Archon over Praxis Seizures?
Elihu and jaroslav are the workhorses of the deck. i thought of including writ of acceptance for elihu.

If you can pass a praxis seizure you may want to pass Archon or Alastor first (or instead of as already suggested) to provide permanent rush. This may be more important than the title and has synergy with anathema. Overall though, I'm not sure you can pass your votes consistently.

Some other thoughts...
Fourth tradition is fun but with presence I like enchant kindred.

Taste over fifth tradition- add more alastor and archon votes if you want to get blocked and into combat. I don't think anyone will block a fifth but many would sacrifice a vampire to avoid permanent rush, if they can't handle your combat.

5 flash and 2 IR goggles- seems like you will be outmaneuvered unless your metagame does not have a lot of maneuver happy decks. But you did mention an assault rifle/blur deck which if done right should always out maneuver you, in my opinion.

Sanguinary wind is fun/ it will work if there is a lot of dodge in your metagame. I have found that playing more than one copy often leads to a discard. Actually, having one leads to a discard too often for my taste.

8 of your vamps have fortitude. including the two main ones you want to use. Why not add some fortitude. Prevent if you want to(I think that's a good idea) but freak drive for the prey and predator who refuse to block. For example: You call Archon. No Blocks. Lets say it passes. Freak Drive and Rush. This would also work well with a diversified rush package, like 3 Bum's, 3 rumble, 3 ambush (or whatever fits your taste). For example: Bum Rush-no block-freak drive-Let's get ready to RRRRRUMBLE!!!

I've been mocked on forum before for suggesting that Bundi was good. It will cost you an extra pool but can be used while grappled. In this case, if you add grapples you can still use it. Kinda cool but not as cool as the chainsaw. For coolness, the chainsaw for seven is awesome.

One more thought: you mentined wanting to get people out of the habit of going with what works. If there is not enough SCE or maneuvers in your metagame I think this deck could force people to adjust and possibly think of new things.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Fri, 31 May 2013 03:09:13 +0000

Earh Meld and Majesty laugh at your wasted effort.
yep. they sure do.

Did you consider Bundi/Immortal Grapple or Psyche!?
not really, no. convince me. gently. and kindly

Did you consider Alastor or Archon over Praxis Seizures?
Elihu and jaroslav are the workhorses of the deck. i thought of including writ of acceptance for elihu.

Did you consider Taste of Vitae over Fifth Tradition?
i did, and figured that fifth tradition gave me more combat opportunities than taste did. i may be wrong.

Subject: Re: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: Adonai

Fri, 31 May 2013 01:48:25 +0000

Earh Meld and Majesty laugh at your wasted effort.

Did you consider Bundi/Immortal Grapple or Psyche!?

Did you consider Alastor or Archon over Praxis Seizures?

Did you consider Taste of Vitae over Fifth Tradition?

Subject: Jaroslav's strange bedfellows - by: self biased

Fri, 31 May 2013 01:34:50 +0000

Deck Name: Strange Bedfellows of the Brujah
Author:
Description:
Elihu and Jaroslav Pascheck run amok! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK! AMOK!

Crypt (Capacity min=6 max=11 avg=7.83; 12 cards)
===================================================
2x Adana de Sforza 11 aus CEL OBF POT PRE PRO Brujah:4
3x Elihu 6 dai for POT PRE Baali:4
3x Jaroslav Pascek 10 for obf CEL POT PRE Brujah:3
2x Pug Jackson 6 for pre CEL POT Brujah:3
2x Tomaine 6 CEL POT PRE Brujah:4

Library (90 cards)
=====================
Master (16 cards)
1x Al's Army Apparatus
3x Blood Doll
3x Celerity
3x Minion Tap
1x New Carthage
2x Protracted Investment
1x Rack, The
2x Warzone Hunting Ground

Action (18 cards)
9x Bum's Rush
3x Fifth Tradition: Hospitality
6x Fourth Tradition: The Accounting

Political Action (6 cards)
4x Anathema
1x Praxis Seizure: Athens
1x Praxis Seizure: Rome

Equipment (10 cards)
2x Baseball Bat
2x Gas-Powered Chainsaw
1x Heart of Nizchetus
2x IR Goggles
2x Leather Jacket
1x Sengir Dagger

Action Modifier (6 cards)
3x Forced March
3x Forger's Hammer

Reaction (6 cards)
6x Second Tradition: Domain

Combat (28 cards)
10x Brute Force
4x Decapitate
5x Flash
6x Increased Strength
3x Sanguinary Wind

Created with Secret Library v0.9.4a. (May 31, 2013 04:11:30)

How do you intend to oust? one-shot most vamps using Elihu/jaroslav +melee weapon +increased strength +brute force. bloat with anathema, eliminate with decapitate. use diablerie as a last resort.
How do you intend to keep from being ousted? Elihu does the dirty work, while Jaroslav keeps the kettle on. second tradition makes sure he's available with +3 intercept. the others are gravy and support.
What do you want your ready region to look like (ie, how many guys are you planning on getting out)? jaroslav, elihu, pug, adana. jaroslav accounts for elihu and pug, and they tool up. adana seals the deal and locks in the votes.
What do you want your average turn to look like? step one: jaroslav calls anathema, elihu pwns the vamp, there is much rejoicing. step two: ... step three: PROFIT!
What's your metagame like? How do your opponents play? too many toolbox decks, one deck is a second tradition/assault rifle/blur deck. much of my current meta is playing with old decks that have withstood the test of time, but there really hasn't been any new blood to shake things up and make people rethink the core of their ideas
What problems have you observed with the deck in play? this deck is untried and untested. i forsee that any deck that uses fortitude that has its shit together will shut this deck down. unless i get a bunch of of brujah out with new carthage.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Joscha

Thu, 30 May 2013 17:36:38 +0000

I play Blood Turnip in my Assamite Anarch Cel-Gun and it is really good. It's like a minor Taste of Vitae each Combat, s.t. preventing the opponent to play that important combat card for one blood or making it easier to hit him to torpor. It's worth the slot!

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Suoli

Thu, 30 May 2013 16:41:20 +0000

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Henkka wrote:

1x Blood Turnip

Not massively convinced by the card myself. Would I rather it was Monster?

Play it and be convinced. Blood Turnip is a huge deal against Ponticulus, Tye Cooper and opposing combat decks. At worst, it's free blood, which is still a pretty big deal in any match up for a mid cap POT-fighter.

Monster, on the other hand, is an expensive way for Beast to bleed for 1. Another Anarch Revolt beats it hands down.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Suoli

Thu, 30 May 2013 16:28:30 +0000

Henkka wrote:

At the moment, my ousting mechanism is just Fames, Dragonbound, and a few Anarch Revolts.

Has Dragonbound won you any games that you wouldn't have otherwise won? -1 hand size seems kinda terrible.

Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers was mentioned. I'll mention it again. It really is the best thing that ever happened to rush decks.

I feel like I need a little boost to my pool damage capabilities. I'm hesitant about Tension in the Ranks, since I don't have any damage prevention so it can hurt me as well, if I go up against another strong combat deck.

If someone is consistently sending you to torpor you'll die from Revolts. Against Claws of the Dead and other minor threats, I think the potential gain is worth the potential loss. Just think of all the Nocturns and Chumpdogs that were supposed to foil you.

I've also considered adding Club Illusion, and changing the Bum's Rushes into Deep Songs.

Another Anarch Revolt might be more effective than Club Illusion. Unlike Club, they only require one anarch on your side to be good and you don't have other reasons to go anarch with your whole team. Paying 1 blood and an action to be able to pay 1 blood for +1 bleed is kinda bad.

- Supporting minions -

I want to have my other vampires do something else than bleed for one, but I don't want to put too many action cards into the deck. Beast can't play them, and the deck flows pretty fast so they might clog my hand if there's too much.

I would drop the Animalism and go with POT-weenies, even dropping !Nos-cards if going out of clan means a lower average capacity. Raven Spy is easily replaced by Mr. Winthrop. As it is, paying for 3 minions seems too risky if you take any kind of pool damage.

4x Earthshock

Haven't tried it in practice but on paper, playing Mighty Grapple as a solution to maneuvers is pure value. Playable under Grapple, easy to cycle, beats set range, gives Beast 5 damage for 1 card and so on.

I'd also try to add 2-4x Pulled Fangs. Usually, it's a free Decapitate.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: jamesatzephyr

Thu, 30 May 2013 15:06:55 +0000

Henkka wrote:

Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 8 average: 4.91667

4x	Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit	(7)	Nosferatu antitribu	(group 2)
3x	Anarch Convert	(1)	Caitiff	(group 0)
2x	Nigel the Shunned	(5)	Nosferatu antitribu	(group 2)
1x	Mateusz Gryzbowsky	(8)	Nosferatu antitribu	(group 3)
1x	Ox, Viceroy of the Hollows	(6)	Nosferatu antitribu	(group 2)
1x	Agatha	(4)	Nosferatu antitribu	(group 2)

So, I think my main question is: are you using the right crypt? Perhaps some combination of:

1x Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff:ANY
1x Dr. Julius Sutphen ADV 5 dom obt POT Lasombra:3
1x Menele 10 aus dom CEL POT PRE THA Brujah:3
1x Pochtli 8 cel dom NEC OBF POT Giovanni:2
1x Theo Bell 7 cel dom pre POT Brujah:2
1x Wah Chun-Yuen 5 cel dom pre POT !Brujah:3

Probably similar ratios to what you're currently using - 4-5 Theo, 3 Anarchs, 2 Wah Chuh-Yuen, 1 Dr. Julius++, possibly 1 Pochtli. POT with a smattering of cel, and some Dominate. Maybe 1 Jimmy Dunn instead of Pochtli. (POT/CEL, no Dom.)

A bunch of things then get removed - Nosferatu Kingdom, Information Network, the Animalism. Maybe add Mr Winthrop, Rumor Mill, And you get the option to add a small number of bleed modifiers - say, 3-4 Conditioning - and tweak the reactions for some bounce. But the combat and masters stay roughly as is.

The particularly nice thing here about bounce is that it's possible for you to get yourself in a pickle if you find that your cross-table allies are title heavy or Imbued heavy, and so can't easily avoid the Anarch penalties. So being able to selectively bounce to your grand-prey to get him to lay off your nobbled grand-predator might be a nice option to have. (Also, I hear bounce is powerful.)

Henkka wrote:

4x Earthshock

Bear in mind you can't play this under Immortal Grapple - it's ranged, so not a hand strike (even though it's based on strength).

Henkka wrote:

1x Blood Turnip

Not massively convinced by the card myself. Would I rather it was Monster?

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Joscha

Thu, 30 May 2013 14:54:53 +0000

Keep in the stealth! It is great to get by chumpblockers like Jake Washington or Nocturnes, who wihout stealth would foil your planes.

I second the proposed use of Obtenebration discipline cards for HfL. I'd squize in two, three if possible.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: ReverendRevolver

Thu, 30 May 2013 13:01:14 +0000

This deck seems to be almost solid, and as mentioned before, monkey wrench would help you.

I dont like g2 !nos crypt here, but Beast is beast, so not much to be changed, i gues. But i would remove Gryzbowsky. Ive uzed him, hes not wothcit, becayse he laxks fortitude. Also, id run lids over earthshock any day, since you can typically press n grapple, making the signpost you probably played not go to waste.

If you want some prevention utility, use Terista instead of Gryzbowsky, and figure oit a way to include gerard rafin and alonso g in your crypt, along with wolfgang. Deep song over bums rush all the way. If yiu cant use deep song in this, id build a very different potence anarchs deck.

Anyway, addimg fortitude with a few more diversion would help with hitback, or go the obt route with: gemeni, mitchell the headhunter, talley, and or advanved dr julius stephenson.

There are many options, but a few good pot obt minions are unfortunately bishops.

Aside from monkey wrench, power of one could help bleed, albeitxbarely.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Jussi

Thu, 30 May 2013 08:36:22 +0000

For ousting, you could add some Monkeywrenches. They cost blood, sure, but they help ousting.

I'd be tempted to replace Agatha with Teresita if you are going to replace bum's rushes with deep songs. She costs 7 though, so that might be too much.

Blood turnip is nice card, but might also be unnecessary here. Replacing at least some of the blood dolls with vessel would be a good idea.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Lönkka

Thu, 30 May 2013 08:14:54 +0000

Henkka wrote:

- Pool damage -
I feel like I need a little boost to my pool damage capabilities.

Add a copy of Edenix Groundkeepers for the support guys to use?
In the instance you've pummeled all prey's minions to Torpor (or tapped them with Deep Song rushes) it is AWESOME to bleed with it.

Henkka wrote:

Pendargon wrote:

Groundfighting, an awesome combat card for anarchs

I wish I owned more than one. It's not in the deck currently, because I was too lazy to search for it when I built this thing.

I should have plenty to hand over.

Subject: Re: Ravnos will do - by: Klaital

Thu, 30 May 2013 08:10:04 +0000

Alexis Sorokin has no animalism at all, which is pretty bad for this deck, you really should switch her to Vasiliy Vasilevich, who is same cap, with superior animalism, and very strong specials. Also switch Paul Forrest to Anjalika Underwood. Finally, Gwen Brand would be just better as Marion French since you use no auspex.

I would also take out the fata amrias, taliths, mantle of the moon, and 1 or 2 chimerstry masters. Replace with some aid from bats which gives your combat a lot more teeth. Likewise, with as little presses as you have, Apparitions would likely be better as Armor of Vitality.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: kombainas

Wed, 29 May 2013 18:09:54 +0000

My bad, missed those Converts ^^

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Henkka

Wed, 29 May 2013 17:11:14 +0000

kombainas wrote:

Either add one more Beast, or more rushes. 4/12 is not enough to depend on a single ability...

Did Hell for leather work well? You cannot dodge, while you IG

IMHO Fake Out is so much better here, than Swallowed by th Night. What you need is the maneuver, not the stealth. With the Fake out, your support gets the maneuver as well, and you don't need maneuvers in 2nd round if you IG.

I am not too sold, on anarch angle though... Does it really add that much to the deck?..

I feel like I already have a duplicate of Beast in the crypt almost every game, since I usually take a new minion from the Convert.

Hell-for-leather actually adds a surprising amount of utility to the combat, and I really like it. That's pretty much the reason for the anarch module anyway, that and Revolts. I built this deck mostly just for fun, but I've come to like the anarch angle quite a bit. I've played a similar plain POT+OBF deck in the past, and I feel it lacked something in the combat department. The only thing I really miss are Abbots.

Jeff Kuta wrote:

stuff

I agree with almost everything you said, except earthshocks and mole. My main combat minion is Beast, and he can't use canine horde for gun removal. I also dislike being completely reliant on close range combat.

I also believe that untapping and attempting to block is stronger in this deck, than untapping after a successful block. The intercept from Cat's Guidance would work much better with my supporting minions though, so I'll think about it.

But I agree about most of the other stuff, so thanks for the advice. I'll be trying some of this out.

Boris The Blade wrote:

You just need Obtenebration skill cards to oust.

I've considered this, but I'm worried it will bait me into focusing too much on my prey. I think I'd need a real bleed defense module with this.

jhattara wrote:

Theo Bell as the tag team partner!

I wish I owned any.

Pendargon wrote:

Groundfighting, an awesome combat card for anarchs

I wish I owned more than one. It's not in the deck currently, because I was too lazy to search for it when I built this thing.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Pendargon

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:55:09 +0000

Groundfighting, an awesome combat card for anarchs

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: kombainas

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:52:49 +0000

You just need Obtenebration skill cards to oust.

This is great advice! Under current deck condition, this is better than Fame/Tension in the ranks or anything alike!

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: jhattara

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:51:49 +0000

Theo Bell as the tag team partner!

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Boris The Blade

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:30:25 +0000

You just need Obtenebration skill cards to oust.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: Jeff Kuta

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:12:38 +0000

Henkka wrote:

4x Bum's Rush

These should be Deep Songs.

Henkka wrote:

2x Lost in Crowds

These can probably be cut. Target acquisition is all they are good for. But, now that you have Deep Songs, they can also double to help a late game lunge.

Henkka wrote:

4x Disarm
4x Earthshock

I'm not a fan of Earthshock with ANI/POT. If it were up to me, I'd use Canine Hordes for permanent gun removal.

Henkka wrote:

1x Flames of Insurrection
4x Vessel

I'd switch these to be Blood Dolls. You can't afford to spend the pool. If you're worried about rescue/push, then put in some Haven Uncovered and make sure empty vampires always worry. You could also consider 1x Monster since you know what Beast will be doing (once) every turn, or even 1x Guardian Angel.

Henkka wrote:

3x The Mole
2x Wake with Evening's Freshness

Not a fan of The Mole. Maybe save one for kicks. Two Cats Guidance would be better. And more OtQV or FA. WwEF is old tech. Your small vampire don't care about blood anyway. They are almost as lethal without any blood as with. If you're concerned about that, put in 2x Glancing Blow (which also helps your Disarms).

Henkka wrote:

1x Raven Spy

Can't be used by Beast. Replace with an intercept location if you really want to.

In general, I think you could drop down to 80 cards and still be successful with this deck.

Subject: Re: Kill all (other) anarchs. - by: kombainas

Wed, 29 May 2013 16:01:15 +0000